Hamilton admits 'mishandling' Alonso

[angel_of_music]

Dunno if this has been posted elsewhere, sorry if it has.

Autosport Wrote:Lewis Hamilton feels in retrospect that he could have managed his relationship with Fernando Alonso better when they were team-mates at McLaren in 2007.

But the Briton remains adamant that he has never enjoyed any special treatment from his team, and that McLaren did its utmost to give both its drivers equal support.

Hamilton and Alonso's partnership famously collapsed in rancour as the 2007 season progressed, and the Spaniard parted company with McLaren to return to Renault at the end of the year.

Although Hamilton now admits that he 'misunderstood' the situation within the team, he remains sceptical about Alonso's inference that McLaren prioritised Hamilton because of its long relationship with him.

"At the beginning of my first year I was up alongside the two-time world champion and he was seen as the guy to win the world championship and I think at the time I misinterpreted and misunderstood the goals and the understanding of how the team worked," Hamilton told the BBC.

"But since I've been here they do everything to give us individually the best package possible. I've never had more than the guy next to me, we've always had equal opportunity, which is the greatest thing in a team.

"It's not easy to manage that, because one guy can be ahead of the other.

"Inevitably people say things sometimes when they haven't done so well. You say things out of anger; you say things that you potentially don't mean. That's how I see it from the others."

Hamilton reiterated his confidence that there will be no problems between him and new team-mate Jenson Button at McLaren this season.

"It's different," said Hamilton. "We've learnt from experiences. We understand each other very well."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/81848

Not sure what to make of it though. I think by reviving this now, Hamilton is only looking for attention, or trying to better his image, I'm not sure. What do you guys think?

[Ginger]

"You say things you 'potentially' don't mean". - Eh?
"That's how I see it from the others" - Pardon?

I can only think that Hamilton is so confused by the image he's trying to project as opposed to what he simultaneously wants to hide that he ends up talking English as though it's a foreign language to him.

Whether he got special treatement in 2007 or not is immaterial, it was Fernando who got the very 'special treatment' of being taken to a stewards' enquiry by his own team when he won the Monaco GP because LH sulked and claimed he'd been prevented from overtaking him ( which even the British media thought ridiculous at the time)!
It was another piece of extraordinarily special treatment when McLaren took their double world champion to a stewards' enquiry for holding up his rookie colleague in the pits after rookie colleague had ignored team orders in quali at Hungary. Result was the very special teatment of a team requesting one of its own drivers be penalised!

No, no, Mr Hamilton. you don't have to worry about us perceiving you as getting 'special' treatment', we know all too well who got that in 2007!

[Tension_36th]

Quote:"Inevitably people say things sometimes when they haven't done so well. You say things out of anger; you say things that you potentially don't mean. That's how I see it from the others."

This pedophile is trying to say that Fernando was the one who didnt perform when results where expected of him and so the pig never got any favoritism and thats why Fernando was beaten.

No one but the junk press and some hooligans in the UK see it that way.

Fernando never said anything out anger for no reason he said everything out of anger for the right and obvious reasons. The only pimp who moaned was the pig itself for being crushed by Fernando in Monaco 2007 and then Hungary Fernando crushed the skin color pimping worm on worn hard tyres by 0.4secs when pig was on the fresh soft tyres in qualifying.

The only one who moaned and used the race card in monaco was the pig. Infact who is the bigger racist here? The 4 clowns face painted black at the spanish tests in 2008 or the shamilton clan?

Thats right, the shamiltons are the biggest racists out there. Who pimps the colors as a means to hide when they cant get the results? Thats said like saying you lost because you are black. A pile trash and sour grapes, which Mclaren ran to and aided by bending over for the pig. It was already a joke when FIA ran that "Racing against racism" bullcrap, when the biggest racist was Shamilton himself. I doubt anyone in the black community who was unbiased thought of pig's comments as anything but merely whining and sulking. You have to be a real low life to be pimping your skin color for your lack of genuine talent.

Narain Karthyekieyan was discrimnated for not having sponsorship money next to that trash can on wheels called Tiago Monteiro. That prick even celebrated a worthless 3rd place in USA 2005 with no hints of shame. Narain is even more darker in complexion than the pig. Did we hear Narain moan about him being black or brown skined man? No we didnt, because he was not a cheapo.

Now we have Karun Chandok he is darker than the pig, so screw these british fags who claim oh look at that, first black man in F1. Bullshit, Narain is the first colored man in that case, if we strictly follow the skin color.

The Shamiltons are a disgrace to the black community, they represent pimps who will stoop low enough to disgrace their entire heritage to get some crumbs on track. But then if that faggot really had any skill it wouldnt need any of this now would it?

[angel_of_music]

(03-04-2010 10:45 PM)Ginger Wrote:  "You say things you 'potentially' don't mean". - Eh?
"That's how I see it from the others" - Pardon?

I can only think that Hamilton is so confused by the image he's trying to project as opposed to what he simultaneously wants to hide that he ends up talking English as though it's a foreign language to him.

LOL, ace input!

@Raptor - you're right, well, in many cases, the blacks are actually more racists than whites anyway. They end up using that as an excuse to underperform and still whine about it.

[Tension_36th]

(03-05-2010 01:23 AM)angel_of_music Wrote:  

(03-04-2010 10:45 PM)Ginger Wrote:  "You say things you 'potentially' don't mean". - Eh?
"That's how I see it from the others" - Pardon?

I can only think that Hamilton is so confused by the image he's trying to project as opposed to what he simultaneously wants to hide that he ends up talking English as though it's a foreign language to him.

LOL, ace input!

@Raptor - you're right, well, in many cases, the blacks are actually more racists than whites anyway. They end up using that as an excuse to underperform and still whine about it.

Not all black sports people are like this. But some apparently are very cheap to use the race card as a reason for their failures and lack of real talent.

The media is aso helping this racism. This toilet wipe named James Allen claimed if anyone is not a 'fan' of Shamilton then they must be racist. Lot of IQ in there eh?. Gee then every F1 fan must become a Shamilton fan or else they must be racist.

Its almost like a neocon propaganda.

If you are not wth us then you are with the terrorists Bush, Dick Cheney, Rumsfled, Giliani, et al

[icegirljenni]

Are not this pig tired? Again and again he brought up the issue from 2007. 2007 is a crystal clear incident. there are so many spectators witness it. We dont need this shamilton to keep step up and explain thing. It is annoying ! Is he really going that bad now? Father not managing him anymore, team may started bias Button, and now he feel alone? is he really going down to toilet now? Piggy you suck so please shut up

[WiTcH]

He said something about...being equal with Fernando at McLaren? interesting... because what I saw had nothing to do with equality... lol And you are right about his english. They are brilliant! You can't get a word. In fact I think he is just trying to clean up the mess he made. But with no success.

[Ace01]

To be fair to Hamilton whilst I think he was part of the problem in 2007 and caused the trouble at Monaco by trying to devalue Alonso's win I don't actually think he was the problem. I think the problem was not so much Hamilton but morely the team. The team should have put Hamilton in his place and really stood by Alonso. The car was nowhere before Alonso turned up and I even remember Dennis praising Alonso's skills in improving the car. He had them winning within just two races. Despite all this though the team went and supported Hamilton. This should not have happenned and also the team rewarded Hamilton for his cheating on Alonso in Hungary (I am not so sure Alonso should have been penalised either). By seasons end it was a joke. I think even Nakajima set a faster lap in Brazil then Alonso in Brazil. And in China Alonso was fast all weekend and then suddenly he was slow in Q3.

Of course we seen the result. No championship for Mclaren.

Quote:I've never had more than the guy next to me, we've always had equal opportunity, which is the greatest thing in a team.

This is rubbish. Kovalainen had races where he had a slower car than Lewis last year (albeit when there was only one upgraded car available). Hamilton also was consistently given the lighter strategy than Kovalainen.

Everyone looks at Kovalainen in 2008 saying he finished seventh whilst Hamilton won the championship. But that is because he never really had a chance. Consistently fuelled heavier than Hamilton. His car had a lot more problems than Hamilton's car and I doubt that is just coincidence. More likely one car was received much better attention. Also his team put his tyres on wrong or something at one race and that is just not something that would happen to Hamilton's car. Without all these problems he could maybe have challenged for the championship. Kovalainen is not imo as good as Hamilton but he was not given the same chances as him.

If there was so much equality in Mclaren then why recently did they have to do this reshuffle to ensure equality between Button and Hamilton? Are Mclaren admitting there wasn't really equality in the first place?

Of course we know when it comes to telling the truth Lewis has already shown his colours. Trying to cheat for 1 extra point and then when the house comes falling down he and the team decide to put a knife in Dave Ryans back. He had only given 35 years of loyal service. Just shows what Mclaren will do for Hamilton and what Hamilton will do for himself.

[Tension_36th]

Hamilton as crushed by Hekkie in 2008 for the fuel corrected performances and some of his wet weather races where superior to the pig more here. Hekkie proved in a not so equal car he can destory the pig, even Trulli on his bad day would piss on the shamilton and ride off into the distance with ease.

The shamitons are nothing more than a marketing propaganda. This is why the fart will never try to leave Mclaren because at any other team it wont get the favors to look good if the teammate is not willing to be a subdued puppet like Heikki. With Heikki it was easy but with Alonso it was war.

The pig was also the main problem at Mclaren, not just the team alone. He pimped his own skin color as the reason for being some kind of apparent number two. He played the media games well. Used the race card under his pimping father's guidance to use the media to focus on him being black therefore 'neglected'.

I mean come on who pimpes his own skin color or race? How is that not considered as not being a problem or a troublemaker?

Had he merely whined about the team favoring Fernando it wouldn't have the same effect as it did when they focused on his race being a black driver. It was a cleverly played ploy by the shamiltons. They knew exactly what the media will pick on, this forced Mclaren to protect their investment that is Shamilton. They knew they are an engineering driven team, they develop fast cars by themselves. There is no driver input into the design of F1 cars like some ill informed press hype it to be. Driver input and its scope is limited to just fedback on handling characteristics, the rest of the work is again on the engineers to work it out. Fernando brought nothing to Mclaren thats just him talking and trying to boast in the heat of the battle. The MP4-22 was in development well before kimi and Montoya even left the team. Mclaren know their own strengths in engineering they saw they can make the pig a leader by crippling the immensely faster Fernando. Even a shit head can win if the car is very very quick out of the box. This exactly what Mclaren had in 2007 and 2008 mostly due to espionage and details on a rival team's data and race procedure plans. Mclaren saw the potential to grab the UK market by storm by supporting a British driver. The fact that its a black driver is a another coup for them interms of gaining publicity.

This maybe one of the reasons why button is quietly confident since he too is British he may not face the same issues like Fernando faced since it wont matter anynore which driver wins, they are both British. Mclaren gains the same market share either way. But the now spoiled by spoon fed results Shamilton will not like this equality and will make noises. The only thing that remains to be seen is whether Mclaren will again work to ensure button is crippled or will they turn a deaf ear to the Shamilton clan's tantrums. I am not holding my breath on this one. The shamiltons have established a political hold in the team even without the pimping father around or despite the fact that Jenson Button is British.

You cant find a worser low life than the shamiltons. There have been colored drivers in F1 before this faggot came long. But its acts like its the first colored driver to set foot in F1 and that somehow its been marginalized.

About Dave Rayan, yes the poor guy had to take the fall as they cant come out and ditch the vermin shamilton at that point as that would completely validate Fernando's story. And 2007 saga would be even revisited by the FIA on the grounds of team orders and driver sabotage by a team.

[Ace01]

Disagree on the car development part. No doubt the team is the main part in building a good car but I think a driver with good input and knowing exactly what he wants can make a difference.

The Mclaren was quick but not the best imo in 2007. I think the Mclaren was only best in Monaco, Canada, Indy, Hungary (because of qualifying), Monza and Japan. I think for Ferrari it was Australia, Malaysia, Bahrain, Spain, France, Silverstone, Turkey, Spa, China and Brazil. Of the left over race at the Nurburgring that is a tricky one because of the different conditions. The Mclaren looked a better car in the wet, but I also think the Ferrari drivers are not the best in the wet. Even though Alonso dominated in Malaysia, Massa set pole easily on Alonso and the Ferrari always looked better in the race than in qualifying. But Massa just messed up in that race. So I reckon that is about 6 to 10 in the Ferrari's favour. Massa had quite a few reliability problems. Kimi had some but not as much as Massa, but also Alonso lost out quite badly in France and under the stupid safety car rule in Canada. Hamilton though lost hardly any points through reliability problems or bad luck. Add to that I rate the Mclaren drivers higher than the Ferrari drivers. I think the Ferrari was actually the better car.

[Tension_36th]

(03-10-2010 12:14 PM)Ace01 Wrote:  Disagree on the car development part. No doubt the team is the main part in building a good car but I think a driver with good input and knowing exactly what he wants can make a difference.

The Mclaren was quick but not the best imo in 2007. I think the Mclaren was only best in Monaco, Canada, Indy, Hungary (because of qualifying), Monza and Japan. I think for Ferrari it was Australia, Malaysia, Bahrain, Spain, France, Silverstone, Turkey, Spa, China and Brazil. Of the left over race at the Nurburgring that is a tricky one because of the different conditions. The Mclaren looked a better car in the wet, but I also think the Ferrari drivers are not the best in the wet. Even though Alonso dominated in Malaysia, Massa set pole easily on Alonso and the Ferrari always looked better in the race than in qualifying. But Massa just messed up in that race. So I reckon that is about 6 to 10 in the Ferrari's favour. Massa had quite a few reliability problems. Kimi had some but not as much as Massa, but also Alonso lost out quite badly in France and under the stupid safety car rule in Canada. Hamilton though lost hardly any points through reliability problems or bad luck. Add to that I rate the Mclaren drivers higher than the Ferrari drivers. I think the Ferrari was actually the better car.

Driver development is myth we have gone over this in many sections on this forums already, and working in this industry on the development of various automotive systems I know the limits of a driver input. Its laughable to say driver develop cars.

Drivers don't develop the car. The word development in engineering means you conceive the concept, design and manufacture the part or component. Are you trying to say Fernando sits infront of the work station designs the parts by himself or takes part in the design process?. Thats nonsense. He does not even have the academic background to understand any of the work that goes on the field let alone design something.

Putting a computer together at home doesn't make you a computer engineer, like wise repairing your home car in your personal garage does not make you a mechanical engineer. Putting together a go-kart also doesnt make you a engineer, many F1 drivers can put a kart together. no big deal.

The Mclaren was clearly ahead in the 2nd half of the season. even in the 1st half they were able to challenge and beat Ferrari but very early on Fernando was being sidelined having backed the wrong driver to lead. 2nd half of the season Shamilton crashing out and Fernando crippled like a limbless monkey didnt help Mclaren score anything worth while when the pig faltered and Kimi Raikkonen was flawless. Kimi was ready to pick up the wins which Mclaren threw away. He was the highest points scorer in the last 4-5 races alone and that too by some margin. Thats not Ferrari being good its Mclaren throwing it away thanks to a pile of shit like shamilton trying to be the fake leader at mclaren.

At tracks like Monza, Hungary or Monaco Mclaren was peerless. Even at China the Mclaren was superior but shamilton ate its tyres too fast and Fernando was just in the running crippled. Brazil was the same story you could see how slow Fernando was in that MP4-22 when the pig was still posting better times despite having fumbled with the buttons nearly stalling the car on track. Again stupidity lost Mclaren the titles not the car. they had one driver fully supported and ready while the other was neglected and even crippled to be never a factor against shamilton in the title fight.

To say Kimi is not rated is the most ill informed claim anyone can make, he's probably then fastest driver to have grace F1 in the recent decade, Not even Fernando comes close to this level. Fernando is not even the fastest driver on the track even in the current times. But he is like clock work in his laptimes when the car is right. If the car is not right he is nowhere as well. You wont find a leader in kimi like Alonso but as far as setup goes if Kimi is unable to ask what he wanted then he wouldnt enjoy those good years at Mclaren even when the car was poor he used to deliver results that car never deserved. He did the same with the F60 which was past its development phase and frozen.

Neither Kimi nor Fernando or any driver for that matter brings anything to any team interms of 'development', this is the work of the engineers not the drivers, when they take a degree in mechanical engineering then they can even begin to talk about being able to contribute anything at all, but then there is the work of thesis, PhD dissertations and journal publications etc. This is no joke.

People sit at home and think drivers can "develop", its nothing but pseudo science.

[Sunny]

Shamilton know that he will be beaten again this year and he's just looking for new friends to play with him in his terrible and racist world I mean he's very late to explain himself about the horrors he fisrt said

[Ace01]

I know the drivers are not engineers and can not build the car or the like. But once the car is on track I think their input is important. At the very least someone who gives the right feedback and clear direction is going to be a big help. And communicating with the team to get the car right I think is important as well.

I think Kimi and the fastest man thing is just a myth. He's a good driver, just not what he is made out to be. Would the fastest man of the recent decade have been matched by Heidfeld and Massa? His record against DC is not better than Webber's. Infact Webber outqualified DC more often than Raikkonen did. I agree he did well against Montoya, but Montoya really struggled a lot with the car a lot but when he was happy he was almost as quick as him. I think Montoya underperformed at Mclaren but I also think he was a bit overrated. So there is not actually a lot to suggest that Kimi was all that quick. He just had fast cars and underperforming and overrated team-mates making him seem better than he actually was. Right from the early days at Ferrari, Massa has been close to Kimi. The gap between Schumacher and Massa was much bigger. Kimi is nothing special in my opinion and his performance in the F60 is overrated. he was being outperformed by Massa up till his Massa's accident and he would not have suddenly gained speed. The tracks happenned to suit the car more and whilst Kimi did a good job it was not as great as some made out to be.

Alonso in my view is atleast as fast as anyone else out there and with all his other attributes makes him the best driver imo. Hamilton I think is an excellent talent (okay i know you dont agree) but no brains, is too much of a hero and also crumbles under pressure easily.

Btw I don't doubt Mclaren lost the championship by favouring Hamilton. But I don't think the Mclaren was the best car.

[icegirljenni]

MP4-22 was a competitive car compare to F2007 , forget the conspiracy , if all the drama and BS were not exist, Fernando can easily steal the title away from Ferrari.

[Tension_36th]

(03-10-2010 01:48 PM)Ace01 Wrote:  I know the drivers are not engineers and can not build the car or the like. But once the car is on track I think their input is important. At the very least someone who gives the right feedback and clear direction is going to be a big help. And communicating with the team to get the car right I think is important as well.

More than half the grid of drivers are able to do this in F1. Its not called development. Its called feedback. Just their feel.

They cant influence development if they dont know how to judge what is wrong in say a wing, what if the wing is working exactly how it should be according to the data and the engineers and the driver says the feel is no right? There is nothing scientific there it is just the driver opinion.

If Fernando is such a technically inclined driver like the ill informed people make it out to be, they had the same group of incompetent engineering tea in 2008 and 2009 at Renault. In 2008 towards the end they showed some improvement when others started slowing down development rates and focusing on 2009. How come 2009 turned out to be a dud if Fernando is able to influence the 'development'? This is best example to illustrate to the general public. Its in the hands of the engineers and their ability to think out of the box not the driver.

(03-10-2010 01:48 PM)Ace01 Wrote:  I think Kimi and the fastest man thing is just a myth. He's a good driver, just not what he is made out to be. Would the fastest man of the recent decade have been matched by Heidfeld and Massa? His record against DC is not better than Webber's. Infact Webber outqualified DC more often than Raikkonen did. I agree he did well against Montoya, but Montoya really struggled a lot with the car a lot but when he was happy he was almost as quick as him. I think Montoya underperformed at Mclaren but I also think he was a bit overrated. So there is not actually a lot to suggest that Kimi was all that quick. He just had fast cars and underperforming and overrated team-mates making him seem better than he actually was. Right from the early days at Ferrari, Massa has been close to Kimi. The gap between Schumacher and Massa was much bigger. Kimi is nothing special in my opinion and his performance in the F60 is overrated. he was being outperformed by Massa up till his Massa's accident and he would not have suddenly gained speed. The tracks happenned to suit the car more and whilst Kimi did a good job it was not as great as some made out to be.

Alonso in my view is atleast as fast as anyone else out there and with all his other attributes makes him the best driver imo. Hamilton I think is an excellent talent (okay i know you dont agree) but no brains, is too much of a hero and also crumbles under pressure easily.

Btw I don't doubt Mclaren lost the championship by favouring Hamilton. But I don't think the Mclaren was the best car.

Thats because you haven't seen F1 for a long time, or else you wouldn't be saying some of the incorrect facts in your support arguments.

Mp4-17 being a good car? You have to be really clueless to say this
MP4-17D also a great car?
MP4-21 also a great car? Kimi took pole with a trash can like that at Monza.

The MP4-17 was a terrible car that handled very poorly and Kimi nearly took a win with it at the French GP, The MP4-17D was a modified 2002 car for 2003 that was again behind development time by a full season competing with others because their 2003 car, the failed MP4-18 never saw the light of the day. The 2005 season showed how he can charge though the field with a very good car and how unstoppable he is in such a car, but reliability threw that title away to Renault. Can you name many drivers who have shown this barnstorming style of racing? Very few, Fernando and sometimes shoelicker.

2004 Again he won in Spa with a car that sustained damaged starting far down as 10th on the grid, he nursed a damaged car to victory. You hav to blinkered to be saying that overrated.

Suzuka 2005 was a stunner despite the fact the car was quick to be able to do that. He started from the back pack.

2007 many of his victories where when he delivered the absolute best of the F2007 when the Mclarens were technically superior but were throwing away results due to infighting.

2008 Internal politics at Ferrari where Massa gets whats he needs but what Kimi asks for is never tended to or was given less priority. Its has nothing to do with motivation or feedback input, when he was clealry asking for want he wants, it is not being provided. This is no different to what went on in Mclaren with Fernando.

2009 Massa was nowhere in the hungarian GP before the accident happened and soon afterwards Kimi gets no more issues with setups as if by magic problems solved and he started delivering results the F60 didnt deserve. So dont go about saying the F60 was a good car because that would be ludicrous. They already stopped development on that car a while back. And Massa when he was around wasn't any impressive either, and Kimi looked like someone else. But the moment Massa is out of the picture Kimi comes back to life? That maybe a good enough explanation for you because you seem to hate him regardless of any quantifiable reason. But for people who work in this field its a clear sign of just how much Ferrari focused on Massa rather than back the right driver in Kimi from the start. Massa is the clear number 1. Its easy for the casual fan to think someone is loosing motivation and getting it back up for no apparent reason. The man himself said he is tired of the politics in F1, that should be sign enough for the hardest critique out there that Kimi didnt change before and after Massa's accident.

If the same happens to Fernando will you then go and say Oh its massa doing such a splendid job and Fernando lost motivation? I doubt it.

You see the same argument a Fernando fan uses can be used against them. 2005 Fernando won a title that Mclaren lost rather than him winning, Its a fact Fernando got several of the wins that kimi was comfortably on his way to win. The only season Fernando can legitimately say he had to fight for it was in 2006. Which is why 2005 is not such an impressive title win. Though its special for any driver when its their first title.

Fernando took pole in Hungary 2009 in a poor car just like Kimi in Monza 2006, but somehow Fernando's is classed as great and Kimi's over rated, thats called double standards. Both after all had less fuel on board compared to the race winner to start with.

There are races where Fernando looked absolutely not himself with very rookies like errors in 2007, 2008, especially 2009 no one is talking about them because this is Fernando forum. But you are keen to pick on some obscure mistakes Kimi made in 2008 and generalize that as his entire career, thats nonsense. The same can be done for the entire lot driving in F1 today. And no one will look pretty anymore.

35 fastest laps to his name with more than half of it coming in Mclaren days, those are not by accident for Kimi.

I can give detailed comparisons to show the Mclarens he drove, apart from the MP4-20, were no where near the class of Ferrari cars in those years. But you already get the picture by now.

Shamilton is junk, not talent . having seen the seasons he has competed in. In 2009 before the car was turned around solely due to Mclaren ingenuity while the vile swine was complaining in the Turkish GP about not being able to overtake a "freakin renault" as he put it. Heikki despite the substandard treatment looked relatively awesome compared to this waste of space.

You see spoil prats like these dont have the skill sett. They get pampered and spoiled by spoon fed results. So when they have to work it on their own their psyche thinks they have to win and they cant handle it anymore. There are far better rookies out there who really deserve the chance than some team puppet. Mclaren pulls the strings to make puppet shamilton look good against the teammate. And when the car is good even Yuji Ide can win races, thats the power of engineering in F1 today, Drivers dont matter as much as anymore. Those were back in the days.

[Ace01]

The only way to really compare drivers is there performance against their team-mates.

Just answer this question. If Kimi is so fast then why was he matched by Heidfeld and Felipe Massa and also only had a record against DC that is no better than Webber's?

Why would Ferrari pay all they did for Kimi only to make him a number 2? It is just non sensicle and another of the excuses by Kimi fans to try and explain why Massa regularly beats him. And in 2009 Massa was beating Kimi, that is a fact. The difference for kimi was that after Massa had his unfortunate accident was that Massa wasn't there to make him look average. Kimi is one of the most overrated drivers in recent memory imo. All this talk of fastest man, had Schumacher running scared. Or how he would dominate without driver aids. Or how the slicks would see the Kimi of old return. Kimi can't live up to the hype because he is not as good and as talented as some try and make out.

I don't deny Alonso made some mistakes in recent years. In 2007 he made a few rash moves and his head was not always in the right place (in difficult circumstances though). In 2008 he was only making mistakes through trying hard and trying to do too much as he was not interested much in 1 or 2 points. Not sure though where you are getting these mistakes in 2009. He made an error in China in the wet and one in the Nurburgring in qualifying with dry tyres in wet conditions. Buts all that I can remember. 2009 was actually a very good season from Alonso but the car was not competitive. He made less mistakes and did better job than guys like Button, Vettel and Hamilton who so many people try and claim were drivers of the year.

[icegirljenni]

(03-11-2010 06:01 AM)Ace01 Wrote:  Just answer this question. If Kimi is so fast then why was he matched by Heidfeld and Felipe Massa and also only had a record against DC that is no better than Webber's?

The first part of this question does not really need looking into.

Nick came in 2000 F1. Kimi came in to F1 drive in 2001.

Let us do the quick recap of season 2001, Kimi had 7 retirements and Nick had 6 retirements.

Kimi score on his debut and was only 1 place behind Nick on his debut. Australia Nick 4th and Kimi 6th
Malaysia Nick Spun off kimi Transmission
Brazil Nick 3rd kimi Spun off
San Marino Nick 7th Kimi Steering problems
Spain Nick 6th and Kimi 8th
Austria Kimi 4th Nick 2 laps down
Monaco Kimi 10th 5laps down Nick Accident (messy race for the whole team)
Canada Kimi 4th Nick Collision
Europe Kimi 10th Nick Drive shaft failure
France Nick 6th Kimi 7th
Britain kimi 5th Nick 6th
Germany Kimi Drive shaft Nick collision
Hungary Nick 6th and Kimi 7th
Belgium Nick Collision Kimi Transmission failure
Italy Kimi 7th Nick 11th 1lap down
USA Nick 6th Kimi Drive shaft
Japan Nick 9th Kimi collision

Kimi collides 1 time and spin off 1 time thats 2 driver errors, how many does nick have? 3 collisions/accidents and 1 spin off the track retiring. Thats 4 problems down to Nick alone.

Nick beat kimi 3 times when both finished without car problems, Kimi beat Nick 3 times when both managed to finish without crashing out.

Nick was 8th place and had 12 points and Kimi was 10th placed and had 9 points in the driver standings.

Kimi had 5 mechanical failures when he had a chance of points finishes, Nick had 1 mechanical failure so he made more problem by himself than his car.

You know what was so great about Kimi's first year? He was like Alonso consistent in the car and delivered points finishes when the car was reliable and even beat his teammate at times all without piggy style politics and favors. Peter Sauber like Nick a lot. He liked Kimi as well but no one got favors in that team. This is why Mika told Dennis if you want to win get the finn.

If Kimi had a better run of reliability he would have handily beaten Nick in the driver standings. That is the reality. This is why Kimi is known for what he is. The fastest and and most consistent driver of that time.

Kimi basically showed what a real rookie with more skill level can do on his first year without favors and Mclaren style politics.

And you claiming Kimi is over-rated. You need to revisit F1 because you dont know what you are taking about, or maybe you haven't really seen these years. Perhaps you are merely looking at statistics and making up your arguments? If you doing so that is a weak way to make a point. Better do your homework before using such stats because stats don't count. The events that led to them have more importance.

He came over to Mclaren he had 10 retirements against DC but whenever he had the reliability for a decent finish he was ahead, DC only managed to win in Monaco thanks to a front row start and a poor start from the Ferrari. Kimi had 9 retirements due to mechanical troubles only 1 in Monaco that was down to his own collision involvement, DC had 3 mechanical problems and 1 collision to his name.
By the 2nd half Kimi was ahead of DC and mechanical troubles ruined his solid race points and podium chances. He made a rookie mistake in France that lost him his 1st win, he slip on the oil left by a Toyota.

DC was no match for Kimi anymore, kimi was getting better and better.

[Tension_36th]

(03-11-2010 06:01 AM)Ace01 Wrote:  The only way to really compare drivers is there performance against their team-mates.

Provided there is real equality, If not its pointless.

(03-11-2010 06:01 AM)Ace01 Wrote:  If Kimi is so fast then why was he matched by Heidfeld and Felipe Massa and also only had a record against DC that is no better than Webber's?

Jenni already dismissed the claim that Nick was matching Kimi or DC for that matter, Kimi surpassed them on his first year with those two drivers. It must be clear by now why Mercedes didnt root for Nick when they choose Kimi. They knew what they had in their hands in Kimi.

The key thing here is that Kimi's progression is no different to Fernando's What happened to Fernando at Minardi? He had 9 retirements and he was 23rd to Tarso Marques's 22nd in the drivers standings.

Fernando moves over to Renault he was matched and troubled by Trulli to the extant Trulli had to be sacked by Flavio for no good reason so that Fernando can blossom. And in 2004 Fisichella was installed as the number 2 driver. 2005 and 2006 they had the car to fight for wins. 2005 they got the titles because Mclaren were unreliable and in 2006 he won it fair and square on his own.

So you got to wonder what was so special in Fernando's path compared to Kimi's? Nothing, they are both excellent drivers who showed difficulties at first and had to adapt and face tough challenges from their teammates and then they blosommed into great top drivers. This is how it happens in real F1. This is the natural progression of things

Not when a color pimping monkey comes along to Mclaren and gets everything on silver platter and the world champion is sent out limping on one leg. Thats not an achievement, thats a disgrace and anyone who says this is a good way to measure seriously has a disturbed mind.

Do you see now how rubbish the pig was at mclaren? Had a good car and better reliability than what Kimi and Fernando enjoyed in their starting years, full team support, blatant favoritism and still couldn't win the damn title. You have to be really shitty to be that bad.

Shamiton needs to be shown this Clicky

You see this is why people who dont buy the PR and bullshit laugh when someone says Shamilton has 'talent'. He has none. He has never progressed the way real champions of the past have had it. This vermin had it very easy and everything handed to it on a platter. Even an orangutan can do the same with some training in all seriousness.

The only clown here who is overrated is the shamilton. Kimi and Fernando are drivers several leagues above its reach.

(03-11-2010 06:01 AM)Ace01 Wrote:  Why would Ferrari pay all they did for Kimi only to make him a number 2? It is just non sensicle and another of the excuses by Kimi fans to try and explain why Massa regularly beats him. And in 2009 Massa was beating Kimi, that is a fact.

I am sorry but you must be pointed out how useless this question is.

Let me put it to you this way, Why did Mclaren pay many more millions more for Fernando and bring him over to Mclaren only to be sidelined and backstabbed? hmm? He was being paid much more than rookie shamiton wasn't he? Doesnt make sense to pay more and harm him now would it according to you? So According to you Fernando must be most overrated double world champion who was fairly beaten by some monkey on wheels eh?

Now dont go "oh but thats different". You would only look foolish. The same is true at Ferrari. They focused on Massa because he enjoys a political advantage care of Shocliker/toad legion within Ferrari. Kimi is not Fernando to play the poltical game well enough, he only cares to ask what he needs, but Ferrari neglected him. Kimi wasnt arsed to play prima dona when he was being marginalized.

Massa was beating him in 2009? You must be the worst Kimi basher out there who gets all his facts wrong and also has no real data to back it up. Do you actually read any of the stats that you seem so much to go after?

You put forth a lot of banana hammock, here now let me illustrate your ignorance on this subject

Austrailia Kimi Differential Massa retried Kimi was 7th in quail Massa was 6th and fueled lighter. Hardly called "beating".

Malaysia Massa 9th Kimi 14th after the wet tyres going on his car when the track was dry Ferrari goof up. That was his race ruined by Ferrari. Kimister was 7th in quali and Masa was 16th. Wow thats definitely gotta be Massa beating kimi, impressive yes?

China Massa faced electrical problems in the race and retired, he qualified 13th. Kimi qualified 8th finished 10th in the mixed up race. (where is massa beating kim?)

Bahrain Kimi finished 6th and Massa finished 14th, Kimi qualified 10th with Massa 8th. So till now beating all I see is kimi handing massa's arse to him nice and pretty.

Spain Massa finished 6th in the race kimi retired with hydraulic problems, Kimi had problems right from qualifying which is why he was 16th while massa was 4th on the grid. No point in comparisons here. You have to be really desperate to use this one as a comparison.

Monaco Kimi gets Ferrari's first podium 3rd place Massa 4th place, Massa starts 5th in quali and Kimi 6th. Kimi hands Massa's arse to him once again. Where is that Massa beating kimi fairytale?

Turkish GP Massa finishes 6th, Kimi 9th, first time Massa has done some worthy challenge to kimi, But who carried more fuel? Kimi. Kimi was 6th in qualifying and massa was 7th despite running lighter. Thanks to a bad start Kimi lost places and he was forever stuck behind Timo in the toyota. Again hardly called 'beating'. Massa never beat Kimi on pace, only race circumstances help massa to get ahead because Kimi couldnt have a proper clean start. Guess who was responsible for that? Ferrari. This was not the first time kimi lost places due to bad starts and the poor clutch controls. Its Ferrari's job to fix that. Not some driver development bullcrap or some delusional rants.

British GP Kimi again out qualified massa by getting into top 10 in 9th place on the grid, and massa was 11th. Massa was fueled longer as he is outside the top ten so he can choose any fuel loads he wants. The strategy ferrari gave for kimi was pathetic after the first stops they sent him right out into traffic behind 12th and 13th placed cars fighting on track. Massa stayed out longer limping from 11th and got clear air and he get all the perfect calls from Ferrari and he finished 4th. Where is the 'beating' here other than Ferrari screwing Kimi once again? Again if you use this as a means to compare you are really are wasting our time since you merely clutching at straws and trying prolong a losing argument.

Germany Felipe is on 8th being lghter than Kimi by 1 lap or so. Kimi was 9th and the start was again poor for kimi the same old clutch issue and later they also find out that his KERS isnt working. Kimi obviously lost out and was in traffic while massa benefited from the attrition on track and gets his first podium. Kimi retired with radiator problems.
Still no 'beating' because kimi didnt factor in the race.

Hungary, Kimi was faster the whole weekend and even into Q3 Kimi was cruising while massa was making error after error spoiling his sets of tyres. Then that unfortunate accident happened to him, thankfully massa was safe, but the point is Massa was stamped on and spit out that whole weekend by kimi

So 7 out of 10 races kimi beat Massa in the race and/or in qualifying. So where is your "kimi beating massa is a fact"? Are you even serious? Dont try to waste my time with such nonsense. I just blew your arguments out of the window. This should be the end of this futile debate.

There is no case here other than some rants that can very well pass you off as some disgruntled Ferrari fanboi. Surely you are not a Ferrari advocate as you have told me. So I would suggest a through analysis before you jump to making false claims that are so easily dismissed as done above.

(03-11-2010 06:01 AM)Ace01 Wrote:  The difference for kimi was that after Massa had his unfortunate accident was that Massa wasn't there to make him look average. Kimi is one of the most overrated drivers in recent memory imo. All this talk of fastest man, had Schumacher running scared. Or how he would dominate without driver aids. Or how the slicks would see the Kimi of old return. Kimi can't live up to the hype because he is not as good and as talented as some try and make out.

Look above Kimi already handed Masas's arse to him before Hungary GP , its a pity he wasnt around to have his arse handed over to him even more with Ferrari failing to get the fantastic results they got without massa around with Kimi leading the team. Because had massa been around, they would have been wasting precious time and effort behind someone who cant get the results kimi gave them with a car that was development forzen. Brazil was yet another race Kimi had a shot at victory but thanks to webber's rash driving and his on track weaving ruined Kimi's race after the unscheduled pitstop for a new nose.

Oh and that victory at Spa was priceless. You can moan and whine all you like but that was pure class from Kimi. His car didnt let him down, the morons at Ferrari didnt goof it up for him and there where no blind or reckless drivers to take him off the track. And he won.

As you can clearly see your massa praises are just nonsense pulled out of thin air, he was pants in the first half of the seaosn when ferrari was closer to the rivals before they started fading away when Ferrari stopped development. Kimi was not even a factor at Ferrari uptil the Hungary. Yet he regularly beat massa for pace. And when Ferrari lost massa from action they quickly focused on Kimi and the results started coming in.

You are just a someone who wants to vent some anti-kimi frustrations because you dont like hearing that fact that Ferrari could do the same to Fernando since golden boy Massa is still around. That is your problem not ours. This shoud not be an excuse to rant and look out of your element as you did with your fantastic claims that "Massa beat kimi - a fact".

Lame and poorly thought through arguments.

Plain Water boils at 100 degrees celcius - now thats a fact right there. Massa beat kimi in 2009 - myth by clueless Kimi bashers.

Look we get it you dont like Kimi but unfortunately for you and people who dont like Kimi there is no tangible proof to support these bullshit claims. So if you cant present a valid case better not try to argue it, will be obviously shot down in flames just as easily as shown above.

(03-11-2010 06:01 AM)Ace01 Wrote:  I don't deny Alonso made some mistakes in recent years. In 2007 he made a few rash moves and his head was not always in the right place (in difficult circumstances though). In 2008 he was only making mistakes through trying hard and trying to do too much as he was not interested much in 1 or 2 points. Not sure though where you are getting these mistakes in 2009. He made an error in China in the wet and one in the Nurburgring in qualifying with dry tyres in wet conditions. Buts all that I can remember. 2009 was actually a very good season from Alonso but the car was not competitive. He made less mistakes and did better job than guys like Button, Vettel and Hamilton who so many people try and claim were drivers of the year.

Rubbish

You are statements are really deviating from the main point, to even compare Button with Fernando. Button made hardly any mistakes. Struggling for pace is different from making mistakes. Mistakes are the stuff Fernando made like in China, the mistakes he did going off track and loosing positions in Bahrain and several other races where he needlessly lost positions in the race going off or having a spin mid race. Vettel had two grave errors. One in Monaco and the other in Turkey, no more.

For someone who as experienced as Fernando those errors are highly odd, It was reckless driving, there is a difference between pushing the limits and losing it in the most unexpected positions on the track.

Shamilton? yes he crashed like a donkey as usual, I dont think anyone seriously named it as the driver of the year other than some loony shamilton worshiper like JA. Where did you see that? A link?

[Ace01]

(03-11-2010 11:02 AM)Tension_36th Wrote:  Jenni already dismissed the claim that Nick was matching Kimi or DC for that matter, Kimi surpassed them on his first year with those two drivers. It must be clear by now why Mercedes didnt root for Nick when they choose Kimi. They knew what they had in their hands in Kimi.

The key thing here is that Kimi's progression is no different to Fernando's What happened to Fernando at Minardi? He had 9 retirements and he was 23rd to Tarso Marques's 22nd in the drivers standings.

Standings mean nothing when you are in a Minardi. Alonso demolished all his team-mates that year. Before he even raced for Renault Michael Schumacher claimed Alonso was the guy to watch for him, not Raikkonen and Montoya who many thought were the biggest threat to Michael.

Fernando moves over to Renault he was matched and troubled by Trulli to the extant Trulli had to be sacked by Flavio for no good reason so that Fernando can blossom. And in 2004 Fisichella was installed as the number 2 driver. 2005 and 2006 they had the car to fight for wins. 2005 they got the titles because Mclaren were unreliable and in 2006 he won it fair and square on his own.

Trulli did not match Alonso. He had a period in 2004 where he had the upper hand and Alonso was struggling making mistakes. Overall Alonso easily beats Trulli for their two years together. In qualifying their stats are close partly because Alonso made some mistakes but in the races Alonso clearly had the upper hand.

Trulli was sacked for not performing. 5 races in a row or something without points. Fisichella who at the time was destroying Massa was very highly rated and many thought he would beat Alonso.

So you got to wonder what was so special in Fernando's path compared to Kimi's? Nothing, they are both excellent drivers who showed difficulties at first and had to adapt and face tough challenges from their teammates and then they blosommed into great top drivers. This is how it happens in real F1. This is the natural progression of things

Alonso had a bit of difficulty in 2004 from his team-mate for a bit. But turned it around not long after. Other than that Alonso was easily ahead of Trulli and his Minardi team-mates.

Not when a color pimping monkey comes along to Mclaren and gets everything on silver platter and the world champion is sent out limping on one leg. Thats not an achievement, thats a disgrace and anyone who says this is a good way to measure seriously has a disturbed mind.

Do you see now how rubbish the pig was at mclaren? Had a good car and better reliability than what Kimi and Fernando enjoyed in their starting years, full team support, blatant favoritism and still couldn't win the damn title. You have to be really shitty to be that bad.

Shamiton needs to be shown this Clicky

You see this is why people who dont buy the PR and bullshit laugh when someone says Shamilton has 'talent'. He has none. He has never progressed the way real champions of the past have had it. This vermin had it very easy and everything handed to it on a platter. Even an orangutan can do the same with some training in all seriousness.

The only clown here who is overrated is the shamilton. Kimi and Fernando are drivers several leagues above its reach.

(03-11-2010 06:01 AM)Ace01 Wrote:  Why would Ferrari pay all they did for Kimi only to make him a number 2? It is just non sensicle and another of the excuses by Kimi fans to try and explain why Massa regularly beats him. And in 2009 Massa was beating Kimi, that is a fact.

I am sorry but you must be pointed out how useless this question is.

Let me put it to you this way, Why did Mclaren pay many more millions more for Fernando and bring him over to Mclaren only to be sidelined and backstabbed? hmm? He was being paid much more than rookie shamiton wasn't he? Doesnt make sense to pay more and harm him now would it according to you? So According to you Fernando must be most overrated double world champion who was fairly beaten by some monkey on wheels eh?

Now dont go "oh but thats different". You would only look foolish. The same is true at Ferrari. They focused on Massa because he enjoys a political advantage care of Shocliker/toad legion within Ferrari. Kimi is not Fernando to play the poltical game well enough, he only cares to ask what he needs, but Ferrari neglected him. Kimi wasnt arsed to play prima dona when he was being marginalized.

Fair point. It just does not make sense though because Ferrari were wasting heaps of money on Kimi and he was also Champ in his first year. Mclaren was much nastier and turned into an all out civil war

Massa was beating him in 2009? You must be the worst Kimi basher out there who gets all his facts wrong and also has no real data to back it up. Do you actually read any of the stats that you seem so much to go after?

You put forth a lot of banana hammock, here now let me illustrate your ignorance on this subject

Austrailia Kimi Differential Massa retried Kimi was 7th in quail Massa was 6th and fueled lighter. Hardly called "beating".

Fuel corrected Massa was still faster in quali. In the race I agree Kimi was quicker but he crashed and I seem to remember that being his fault whilst Massa had a car problem

Malaysia Massa 9th Kimi 14th after the wet tyres going on his car when the track was dry Ferrari goof up. That was his race ruined by Ferrari. Kimister was 7th in quali and Masa was 16th. Wow thats definitely gotta be Massa beating kimi, impressive yes?

Well the qualifying mistake from Ferrari should never have happenned

China Massa faced electrical problems in the race and retired, he qualified 13th. Kimi qualified 8th finished 10th in the mixed up race. (where is massa beating kim?)

In the wet Kimi was outclassed by Massa

Bahrain Kimi finished 6th and Massa finished 14th, Kimi qualified 10th with Massa 8th. So till now beating all I see is kimi handing massa's arse to him nice and pretty.

Massa got caught up in a first lap incident. But his pace was very good when he got clean air

Spain Massa finished 6th in the race kimi retired with hydraulic problems, Kimi had problems right from qualifying which is why he was 16th while massa was 4th on the grid. No point in comparisons here. You have to be really desperate to use this one as a comparison.
Same as Malaysia really jsut Kimi getting knocked out. Should not have happenned

Monaco Kimi gets Ferrari's first podium 3rd place Massa 4th place, Massa starts 5th in quali and Kimi 6th. Kimi hands Massa's arse to him once again. Where is that Massa beating kimi fairytale?

Massa had no chance as he got held up in qualifying. His pace once agin showed he was every bit as quick as Kimi.

Turkish GP Massa finishes 6th, Kimi 9th, first time Massa has done some worthy challenge to kimi, But who carried more fuel? Kimi. Kimi was 6th in qualifying and massa was 7th despite running lighter. Thanks to a bad start Kimi lost places and he was forever stuck behind Timo in the toyota. Again hardly called 'beating'. Massa never beat Kimi on pace, only race circumstances help massa to get ahead because Kimi couldnt have a proper clean start. Guess who was responsible for that? Ferrari. This was not the first time kimi lost places due to bad starts and the poor clutch controls. Its Ferrari's job to fix that. Not some driver development bullcrap or some delusional rants.

I agree Massa didn't beat him on pace it just wasnt Kimi's day.

British GP Kimi again out qualified massa by getting into top 10 in 9th place on the grid, and massa was 11th. Massa was fueled longer as he is outside the top ten so he can choose any fuel loads he wants. The strategy ferrari gave for kimi was pathetic after the first stops they sent him right out into traffic behind 12th and 13th placed cars fighting on track. Massa stayed out longer limping from 11th and got clear air and he get all the perfect calls from Ferrari and he finished 4th. Where is the 'beating' here other than Ferrari screwing Kimi once again? Again if you use this as a means to compare you are really are wasting our time since you merely clutching at straws and trying prolong a losing argument.

I agree it didn't work out for Kimi but saying that it was still a good performance from Massa

Germany Felipe is on 8th being lghter than Kimi by 1 lap or so. Kimi was 9th and the start was again poor for kimi the same old clutch issue and later they also find out that his KERS isnt working. Kimi obviously lost out and was in traffic while massa benefited from the attrition on track and gets his first podium. Kimi retired with radiator problems.
Still no 'beating' because kimi didnt factor in the race.

Agree

Hungary, Kimi was faster the whole weekend and even into Q3 Kimi was cruising while massa was making error after error spoiling his sets of tyres. Then that unfortunate accident happened to him, thankfully massa was safe, but the point is Massa was stamped on and spit out that whole weekend by kimi

Massa was quicker in Q1 and close in Q2 before his accident and Kimi's Q3 wasn't impressive. But we can never know what would have happenned in the race

So 7 out of 10 races kimi beat Massa in the race and/or in qualifying. So where is your "kimi beating massa is a fact"? Are you even serious? Dont try to waste my time with such nonsense. I just blew your arguments out of the window. This should be the end of this futile debate.
Pre Hungary he only had more than double the points of Kimi. Whilst I agree for speed it was pretty close Massa had the better results.

There is no case here other than some rants that can very well pass you off as some disgruntled Ferrari fanboi. Surely you are not a Ferrari advocate as you have told me. So I would suggest a through analysis before you jump to making false claims that are so easily dismissed as done above.

(03-11-2010 06:01 AM)Ace01 Wrote:  The difference for kimi was that after Massa had his unfortunate accident was that Massa wasn't there to make him look average. Kimi is one of the most overrated drivers in recent memory imo. All this talk of fastest man, had Schumacher running scared. Or how he would dominate without driver aids. Or how the slicks would see the Kimi of old return. Kimi can't live up to the hype because he is not as good and as talented as some try and make out.

Look above Kimi already handed Masas's arse to him before Hungary GP , its a pity he wasnt around to have his arse handed over to him even more with Ferrari failing to get the fantastic results they got without massa around with Kimi leading the team. Because had massa been around, they would have been wasting precious time and effort behind someone who cant get the results kimi gave them with a car that was development forzen. Brazil was yet another race Kimi had a shot at victory but thanks to webber's rash driving and his on track weaving ruined Kimi's race after the unscheduled pitstop for a new nose.

Oh and that victory at Spa was priceless. You can moan and whine all you like but that was pure class from Kimi. His car didnt let him down, the morons at Ferrari didnt goof it up for him and there where no blind or reckless drivers to take him off the track. And he won.

As you can clearly see your massa praises are just nonsense pulled out of thin air, he was pants in the first half of the seaosn when ferrari was closer to the rivals before they started fading away when Ferrari stopped development. Kimi was not even a factor at Ferrari uptil the Hungary. Yet he regularly beat massa for pace. And when Ferrari lost massa from action they quickly focused on Kimi and the results started coming in.

You are just a someone who wants to vent some anti-kimi frustrations because you dont like hearing that fact that Ferrari could do the same to Fernando since golden boy Massa is still around. That is your problem not ours. This shoud not be an excuse to rant and look out of your element as you did with your fantastic claims that "Massa beat kimi - a fact".

Lame and poorly thought through arguments.

Plain Water boils at 100 degrees celcius - now thats a fact right there. Massa beat kimi in 2009 - myth by clueless Kimi bashers.

Look we get it you dont like Kimi but unfortunately for you and people who dont like Kimi there is no tangible proof to support these bullshit claims. So if you cant present a valid case better not try to argue it, will be obviously shot down in flames just as easily as shown above.

(03-11-2010 06:01 AM)Ace01 Wrote:  I don't deny Alonso made some mistakes in recent years. In 2007 he made a few rash moves and his head was not always in the right place (in difficult circumstances though). In 2008 he was only making mistakes through trying hard and trying to do too much as he was not interested much in 1 or 2 points. Not sure though where you are getting these mistakes in 2009. He made an error in China in the wet and one in the Nurburgring in qualifying with dry tyres in wet conditions. Buts all that I can remember. 2009 was actually a very good season from Alonso but the car was not competitive. He made less mistakes and did better job than guys like Button, Vettel and Hamilton who so many people try and claim were drivers of the year.

Rubbish

You are statements are really deviating from the main point, to even compare Button with Fernando. Button made hardly any mistakes. Struggling for pace is different from making mistakes. Mistakes are the stuff Fernando made like in China, the mistakes he did going off track and loosing positions in Bahrain and several other races where he needlessly lost positions in the race going off or having a spin mid race. Vettel had two grave errors. One in Monaco and the other in Turkey, no more.

For someone who as experienced as Fernando those errors are highly odd, It was reckless driving, there is a difference between pushing the limits and losing it in the most unexpected positions on the track.

Are you talking about 2009? if youare I'm sure you will be able to point out all these mistakes to me from Alonso because I don't seem to remember them. I agree with lack of pace not being the same as mistakes, but like mistakes it does effect your consistency and results.

Shamilton? yes he crashed like a donkey as usual, I dont think anyone seriously named it as the driver of the year other than some loony shamilton worshiper like JA. Where did you see that? A link?

[Chrissie]

I can't wait for the new season to start....maybe we will all have something new to argue about