German GP race

[maranellored]

(07-26-2010 08:12 PM)WiTcH Wrote:  And something to laugh with...

Quote:McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh has refused to comment on the Ferrari team orders scandal but insists the same thing would not have happened at McLaren under his watch.

At the German Grand Prix the stewards fined Ferrari for implementing team orders and it could face further punishment when the issue is put before the FIA World Motor Sport Council. Whitmarsh said McLaren would never have ordered its drivers to swap positions under the same circumstances.

"You can go back to the late 90s and all sorts of times when things have happened - but we decide to race," he told Autosport. "I think having our drivers racing, in the longer term, is a healthy thing to do for this team. That is my decision and that is what we want to do. Others do what they want to do, and it is for the FIA and Ferrari to determine what they think is right. We were racing our two guys until the end of the race."

He said he did not want to comment publically on the issue.

"I don't want to get drawn into it," he added. "I have my own private views on it. They were quicker than us today; they got a 1-2, but perhaps in a different order from that which people may have thought was right. I will give my private views to Ferrari, but I don't want to go on record and express those views."

"All I know is the same as you. I heard what I heard, I saw what I saw, but it is for others to comment on. Ferrari were quick and we did what we could - and they raced how they raced. That was not a new approach from Ferrari, was it?"

At McLaren they can be hilarious when they want to...

I can just imagine the conversation between Domenicalli, Whitmarsh, Alonso and Massa............

MW: I can't believe you did that yesterday, how stupid can you be?

SD: We didn't actually give a team order........

MW: Not that you idiot, you just did it so you got caught

SD: Oh, ok, so what would you suggest next time? I haven't done this for a few years now.

MW: Well, you need to set one of your chief engineers up, like before, get the FIA involved and while all that is happening ensure that your young driver gets all the attention and support while completely alienating your star driver and making him paranoid.

FA: What?? What did you say?? I'm telling on you!!!!

MW: Now now Nando, it's all going to be ok, we love you very much, just as much as Lewis.

SD: We can't really do that again, the washing powder we found in Kimi's car really messed up the engine.

MW: Well, in that case, sack Massa, sign Heikki and just tell him, matter of fact, that your other driver will always come first no matter what, that way you won't have the embarrasing radio calls.

FM: Erm, hello, I've just signed a new 2 year contract!!!

MW, SD & FA: So did Kimi!!!!!

FM: I'll get my coat.............

[Sazkia]

*sigh* I just want to go back to the days where Kimi just came into the picture and where Hakkinen was still on the track as well...

I hate the way things are going right now. And the sport is already suffering so much bad press, it really doesn't need a new scandal right now.
And sure, team orders may happen at every team, but come on, this was too obvious and it was such hypocricy of Fernando to play along and then act like nothing happened.
Like a boy who just ate a whole chocolate cake, the chocolate still on his face and then say 'I didn't eat the cake! I know nothing!'.
And then that whole crap of him being like, 'the race was manipulated' blahblahblah and now he participates in doing so!
In 2006 (I think) he said that F1 was no longer a sport. So... you're saying that THIS is sportsman-like? Come on.

Anyways. I think every person here has their right to express their opinion. And yes I am an Alonso-fan. But this just makes me want to gag, I like the sport to be fair and square, you're faster? Good, then fight for victory. Be that brilliant driver. Don't whine to your boss to let the LEADER move over because you can't get past him!

[Chrissie]

(07-26-2010 07:58 PM)maranellored Wrote:  The young man from 2005 and 2006, who was affable, fair, aggressive on track and pleasant off it has gone. He was poisoned at McLaren and hasn't recovered from it, hence the ruthless and paranoid Alonso we have today.

That's a good point maranelllored.....during the early part of this year, there were claims like he had changed and he wasn't like he used to be...but I didn't kind of think that, you know, I just thought he's just settling in to a new team and he's under a little bit of pressure so maybe he's allowed to be a bit moody and whatever, but after yesterday, I don't know - I don't really recognise him anymore and I hadn't thought of it before but yeah, I think that stint at McLaren did him more harm than I originally thought....

While I find there are certain ways in which you could defend what Ferrari did yesterday...it is difficult to defend Alonso's behaviour...that makes me kind of sad

[ashyxt]

didn't you guys notice how "low-key" fernando was after crossing the line? if he felt he deserved the win he would go into hyper mode celebrating, but he obviously didn't, it was kinda like "ok, pose for the camera, then get to massa to apologize, because this is really hurting him etc etc & then say something to try to pull my team outta hot water, not sure if that's gonna help, but I gotta try" (BECAUSE rob smedley & felipe made it wayyyyyyy tooo OBVIOUS, probably because of unwillingness, but they have the right to do so...) see how kimi did it for felipe in shanghai 2008, it's still noticable, but it's not that much ain't it?

so I wouldn't say Fernando had been hypocritical in this case, if you've read his interviews long enough you'd know he's a very straightforward guy, 99% of his thoughts come out unfiltered by his mind, only his heart

the team also did give felipe the chance to prove his pace, if you guys had read domenicali's interview, the 1sec gap to 3sec, with rob smedley urging him to pull a gap, that's the point, but fernando caught up in no time...

[TitusTravancore]

(07-25-2010 06:13 PM)Chrissie Wrote:  OK...I'm tending to agree with Stef here - I know team orders are wrong but absolutely everyone does it just not in such an obvious way....what else were they going to do - let Felipe continue to hold up Fernando and give Vettel a chance to get by one if not both of them? Wait until Fernando exploded and tried some foolish move taking them both out?? I mean, I'm not happy that he's won this way but goddammit we were due....ok in the first few races he made some stupid mistakes and they were his fault no-one elses but the past two races he's been driving well but just had rotten luck and got no results to show for his efforts.

I don't see it as a waste of time either...Fernando could well be in with a chance of the championship - he ain't too far off you know...people have pulled back greater deficits to the leader than the one he has now and with a point system that didn't reward race winners as much as the current one - none of us has a crystal ball so none of us can tell what kind of pace Ferrari are going to have for the next 7 or 8 races or whatever.....tension, if we were to believe you, Ferrari wouldn't have even won today...so why believe that they can't win again?

As for the conversation at the end...what exactly should he have said.......thanks for asking felipe to move over???


And finally, calling Fernando a cheat is a bit rough....at the end of the day, it was the team who told Felipe to move over, not Fernando...though I do agree saying "this is ridiculous" was out of order

Great to know that people like you can see the truth behind the whole thing. I'm against team orders totally, but what I can't stand is people rising up and accusing Ferrari and Alonso alone of "manipulating". I think Alonso is a figure one can either love or loathe (unlike Schumacher and Senna, whom all people generally tend to like even if they are not ardent fans of them - I'm not saying there aren't people who hate them. There are plenty but I'm speaking in the general sense even among people who don't follow F1 much), so the Alonso haters use this and every other opportunity to bring him down. And this even from seasoned journalists - I'm not giving the names.

What's really hilarious is the intra-team politics. We have one Christian Horner accusing Ferrari of causing a "manipulated race".

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85580

When did Horner and his team last display fairness with regard to their drivers?

Finally, one question to Tension_36th: I know people think Alonso knew of all this earlier. But can this be verified? Alonso was definitely and maybe unreasonably bugged by his failed overtaking moves, hence the comment he made on the radio earlier "this is ridiculous" . But would he have known of the team asking Massa to move over? He could have since he closed right up to him. But there is a chance that he didn't know of it and just thought Massa was having a problem. Alonso could have learned of that after the race when he talked with Massa and that's why he probably appeared to dodge the point at the press conference. I know this is all hypothesis, but just felt like sharing it.

---

(07-26-2010 04:19 AM)Tension_36th Wrote:  You yes that was a moment of "Ouch" when they pointed out Valencia. Manipulated and all that.

What a mess.

Alonso apologized for what he said after Valencia. I think it should end with that.

[icegirljenni]

(07-27-2010 08:26 AM)TitusTravancore Wrote:  I know people think Alonso knew of all this earlier. But can this be verified? Alonso was definitely and maybe unreasonably bugged by his failed overtaking moves, hence the comment he made on the radio earlier "this is ridiculous" . But would he have known of the team asking Massa to move over? He could have since he closed right up to him. But there is a chance that he didn't know of it and just thought Massa was having a problem. Alonso could have learned of that after the race when he talked with Massa and that's why he probably appeared to dodge the point at the press conference. I know this is all hypothesis, but just felt like sharing it.

Do you think that if Fernando did not make such a complaint, the team order will still exist? It doesn't matter Fernando did or did not know the move, but from the point of view from the spectators, as well as the fans which they have seen everything from the beginning of the race, you can not blame why they have come to a conclusion of blaming Fernando. It is his own action that raises people to think such a way, as Chrissie has said Fernando ranting over the radio was out of order too though she reserve the judgment for the team order case.


So you see last week race did not only raises an anti Alonso fans to attack Fernando, but it is also pain for Fernando fans too. I know my members here by heart, i know from where they begin and why we are all here and gather around. We are Fernando fans, so making a little rants/ bad comments did not certified they are not Fernando fans / anti Alonso. I always wanted to see thing in a fair way, as many peoples support their favorite drivers in their own way. Sharing and debating is always like this, disagree and agree are part of discussion, but taking thing personally is waste of time ( i did not aim to you mainly).


In the end of the day what seem to strike my attention is, why did Fernando particularly frustrated over the point that he cant pass Massa and it lead to a complaint to the team? and "IF" he did not make such a rant, do you think team order will not be there?


Question of the day from me to everyone:

What make you all feel frustrated with the last week race? I am curiously want to hear comment from you guys.

[icegirljenni]

(07-27-2010 08:26 AM)TitusTravancore Wrote:  http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85580

Horner might be appear to have shown some unfair in the team with the "RBR Wing" problem, but they did not assign any driver to slow down and not to pass the other driver "or" to ask the other driver pass another. What he mean in "manipulated" is exactly like what Fernando said in Valencia.

Stupid Mclaren got favor, the penalty came too late and the other got advantage. Same like last week, One driver allow another driver to pass, that call manipulate. I did not see RBR doing any manipulated so far or if you have one please give me a good example. So far the one seem to be the king of manipulated are only 2 teams:

1) Ferrari ( am not referring only last week incident) but they are generally always does it.

2) Mclaren ( they manipulating the race with their sabotaging tricks which we have seen a lot last time)

[TitusTravancore]

(07-27-2010 12:15 PM)icegirljenni Wrote:  

(07-27-2010 08:26 AM)TitusTravancore Wrote:  http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/85580

Horner might be appear to have shown some unfair in the team with the "RBR Wing" problem, but they did not assign any driver to slow down and not to pass the other driver "or" to ask the other driver pass another. What he mean in "manipulated" is exactly like what Fernando said in Valencia.

Stupid Mclaren got favor, the penalty came too late and the other got advantage. Same like last week, One driver allow another driver to pass, that call manipulate. I did not see RBR doing any manipulated so far or if you have one please give me a good example. So far the one seem to be the king of manipulated are only 2 teams:

1) Ferrari ( am not referring only last week incident) but they are generally always does it.

2) Mclaren ( they manipulating the race with their sabotaging tricks which we have seen a lot last time)

Opinions vary, but I think the Red Bull clash in Turkey was caused by team orders that weren't obeyed. Webber stood his ground and as a result earned our respect. It clearly seemed a team order situation for me with Vettel suddenly gaining pace when Webber was steadying his pace. That was why the team initially were full of criticism for Webber alone. It seemed to me a manipulation that failed to produce the desired result. They then sensed it won't go down well in public and changed their view on the incident, claiming they hadn't seen the complete video footage then.

Their exercise of team orders just wan't as obvious as Ferrari did it and that's the problem. Horner knows it and goes on lamentation mode about Ferrari's debacle - if that isn't hypocrisy I don't know what is. Not that I don't agree with what he said, but let him straighten his garage first. I'm sure we haven't seen the last of team orders this season. Coded messages will continue to be given by teams and it always has. Ferrari, it seems, don't know to create properly coded messages and keep doing stuff to rouse the anger of fans - pathetic for a 60-year F1 team. But there's more to what happened on Sunday than meets the eye.

I can NEVER ACCEPT team orders. But what I'm saying is Ferrari isn't the only culprit and Alonso isn't the only beneficiary out there. They're only the more obvious culprits.

[ashyxt]

(07-27-2010 12:05 PM)icegirljenni Wrote:  1. In the end of the day what seem to strike my attention is, why did Fernando particularly frustrated over the point that he cant pass Massa and it lead to a complaint to the team?

2. and "IF" he did not make such a rant, do you think team order will not be there?

3. What make you all feel frustrated with the last week race? I am curiously want to hear comment from you guys.

1. this is what I believe to be the best explaination (fan's perspective of course...) because it's been quite several occasions already, fernando wanted to win, he knew he's quicker & would be quicker pulling into lead had he been in front, he knew vettel was quick & these suck, having to wait for felipe to make mistake or something to get past (AGAIN, this is to do it without taking too much risk, since he could get as close as below 1sec, otherwise he could just do it brainlessly agressive & probably risking at least one of them pointless) he's frustrated, being a racing driver (with perhaps slightly hotter temper) I believe he's one of those "not very patient" quick drivers who HATE being stuck behind a.k.a. quicker than the car in front but having to take risk passing, EVEN MORE SO a team mate, I believe fernando gave most "cockpit gestures" in the past 4 years than anyone else, when coming to being stuck behind slow traffic

2. I believe yes, had he not vent the frustration, & instead converting them into agressiveness, the ferrari team will automatically sense the need of a team order
& the past are the reference

3. I don't feel frustration, just a little upset (couldn't be more because fernando is beneficial after all) because that.. fernando found himself in that position (being higher up in WDC than felipe, being quicker than felipe in the race, being already being held up quite many times already, having vettel chasing behind... etc etc)

I really hope fernando wins this WDC with plenty of brilliant moments in the remaining races, to wipe this unpleasant stain off

[TitusTravancore]

(07-27-2010 12:05 PM)icegirljenni Wrote:  

(07-27-2010 08:26 AM)TitusTravancore Wrote:  I know people think Alonso knew of all this earlier. But can this be verified? Alonso was definitely and maybe unreasonably bugged by his failed overtaking moves, hence the comment he made on the radio earlier "this is ridiculous" . But would he have known of the team asking Massa to move over? He could have since he closed right up to him. But there is a chance that he didn't know of it and just thought Massa was having a problem. Alonso could have learned of that after the race when he talked with Massa and that's why he probably appeared to dodge the point at the press conference. I know this is all hypothesis, but just felt like sharing it.

Do you think that if Fernando did not make such a complaint, the team order will still exist? It doesn't matter Fernando did or did not know the move, but from the point of view from the spectators, as well as the fans which they have seen everything from the beginning of the race, you can not blame why they have come to a conclusion of blaming Fernando. It is his own action that raises people to think such a way, as Chrissie has said Fernando ranting over the radio was out of order too though she reserve the judgment for the team order case.


So you see last week race did not only raises an anti Alonso fans to attack Fernando, but it is also pain for Fernando fans too. I know my members here by heart, i know from where they begin and why we are all here and gather around. We are Fernando fans, so making a little rants/ bad comments did not certified they are not Fernando fans / anti Alonso. I always wanted to see thing in a fair way, as many peoples support their favorite drivers in their own way. Sharing and debating is always like this, disagree and agree are part of discussion, but taking thing personally is waste of time ( i did not aim to you mainly).


In the end of the day what seem to strike my attention is, why did Fernando particularly frustrated over the point that he cant pass Massa and it lead to a complaint to the team? and "IF" he did not make such a rant, do you think team order will not be there?

Drivers when racing for position will have many things running through their mind, be it Alonso or anyone else. We got to hear the team radio from Alonso alone. We never get to hear what all drivers in the F1 field say on their radios. Ranting on the radio isn't particularly wrong. At least he didn't use foul language. Had we never had team radio option on the race broadcast we'd never hear the ranting. We don't judge drivers on what they rant about but how they drive.

I personally don't think the team order had anything to do with the rant. I believe Felipe was given a target gap to achieve and he probably failed in doing that, and Alonso was catching up. Ferrari have always maintained that the faster driver will be supported in the championship quest. Had Massa acquired the same number of points or was at least a few points behind, as Vettel and Webber are, I don't think this would have happened. But I'm not supporting team orders and I am frustrated at Alonso's apparent inability to make a successful overtaking move on Massa.

---

(07-27-2010 12:05 PM)icegirljenni Wrote:  Question of the day from me to everyone:

What make you all feel frustrated with the last week race? I am curiously want to hear comment from you guys.

What makes me a upset is that we wait so long for Alonso to win again, and when he does win there is some problem with it. Patience, and lot's of it, is what Alonso fans should have these days.

I fully agree with Icegirjenni's view that we shouldn't take things to heart. This is a sport and we have our lives to live. But I am totally impressed by the honest critiscms of Alonso at this site. Fans aren't blind, they are fully aware of the facts and must point out the right and wrong of their favorite driver.

But this incident won't take away anything from Alonso's place in history if he manages to win the title this year. His comeback drives prove he is miles ahead of Massa or most drivers out there. Why else would Ferrari sign him up? Fernando Alonso is one of the greatest Grand Prix drivers of all time. Period.

[icegirljenni]

(07-27-2010 01:59 PM)TitusTravancore Wrote:  Opinions vary, but I think the Red Bull clash in Turkey was caused by team orders that weren't obeyed. Webber stood his ground and as a result earned our respect. It clearly seemed a team order situation for me with Vettel suddenly gaining pace when Webber was steadying his pace. That was why the team initially were full of criticism for Webber alone. It seemed to me a manipulation that failed to produce the desired result. They then sensed it won't go down well in public and changed their view on the incident, claiming they hadn't seen the complete video footage then.

To me, Webber/Vettel crash were more similar like Monty/Ralf case, which means, no team order been given and the drivers racing for their own victory. Beside, i personally dont think that criticism are fully on Webber alone. But oh well it has to do again with how you see the overtaking, after a proper research, 50% spectators said Webber generally has a nasty driving style, not that we havent see isnt? So i think Web/Vet crash has nothing link to manipulation

(07-27-2010 01:59 PM)TitusTravancore Wrote:  Ferrari, it seems, don't know to create properly coded messages and keep doing stuff to rouse the anger of fans - pathetic for a 60-year F1 team. But there's more to what happened on Sunday than meets the eye.

Ferrari are more obvious

(07-27-2010 01:59 PM)TitusTravancore Wrote:  I can NEVER ACCEPT team orders. But what I'm saying is Ferrari isn't the only culprit and Alonso isn't the only beneficiary out there. They're only the more obvious culprits.

No i would said, Ferrari is the culprit,i dont know what make them release those team order but we will never know also and i did not said Fernando is the culprit, i was just explain to why the medias and the spectators uses this incident to link with Fernando, because of his "complaint" over radio. So you cant blame why people making that kind of assumption isn't it?

(07-27-2010 02:03 PM)ashyxt Wrote:  1. this is what I believe to be the best explaination (fan's perspective of course...) because it's been quite several occasions already, fernando wanted to win, he knew he's quicker & would be quicker pulling into lead had he been in front, he knew vettel was quick & these suck, having to wait for felipe to make mistake or something to get past (AGAIN, this is to do it without taking too much risk, since he could get as close as below 1sec, otherwise he could just do it brainlessly agressive & probably risking at least one of them pointless) he's frustrated, being a racing driver (with perhaps slightly hotter temper) I believe he's one of those "not very patient" quick drivers who HATE being stuck behind a.k.a. quicker than the car in front but having to take risk passing, EVEN MORE SO a team mate, I believe fernando gave most "cockpit gestures" in the past 4 years than anyone else, when coming to being stuck behind slow traffic

2. I believe yes, had he not vent the frustration, & instead converting them into aggressiveness, the Ferrari team will automatically sense the need of a team order
& the past are the reference

Judging your explanation, you do think that team order were release after Fernando frustration. This is an interesting point from you. For the no:1 case, it still did not explain to why it will happen but i think i shall rest the case. But thanks for the comments.

(07-27-2010 02:16 PM)TitusTravancore Wrote:  Drivers when racing for position will have many things running through their mind, be it Alonso or anyone else. We got to hear the team radio from Alonso alone. We never get to hear what all drivers in the F1 field say on their radios. Ranting on the radio isn't particularly wrong. At least he didn't use foul language. Had we never had team radio option on the race broadcast we'd never hear the ranting. We don't judge drivers on what they rant about but how they drive.

Let me refresh my memory, i do hear lots of ranting and frustration though but very rare with the same team mate, i mean both same engine same pace. Unless he is expecting a move over from Massa and he did not get ( dont slam me with this as i am only guessing) but well is ok stretching over this issue wont help also. Thanks for the comment.

(07-27-2010 02:16 PM)TitusTravancore Wrote:  But I am totally impressed by the honest critiscms of Alonso at this site. Fans aren't blind, they are fully aware of the facts and must point out the right and wrong of their favorite driver.

Variety is what i chase, that's why i loaded with different kind of members here

(07-27-2010 02:16 PM)TitusTravancore Wrote:  What makes me a upset is that we wait so long for Alonso to win again, and when he does win there is some problem with it. Patience, and lot's of it, is what Alonso fans should have these days.

I love the Bahrain type of win, not like last week. Controversy win with fans booing is not what i wish to see, so i am upset ,like falmark said earlier, they have got the car last week to win but it turn out this way, damn upset.

[Chrissie]

(07-27-2010 03:26 PM)icegirljenni Wrote:  

(07-27-2010 01:59 PM)TitusTravancore Wrote:  Opinions vary, but I think the Red Bull clash in Turkey was caused by team orders that weren't obeyed. Webber stood his ground and as a result earned our respect. It clearly seemed a team order situation for me with Vettel suddenly gaining pace when Webber was steadying his pace. That was why the team initially were full of criticism for Webber alone. It seemed to me a manipulation that failed to produce the desired result. They then sensed it won't go down well in public and changed their view on the incident, claiming they hadn't seen the complete video footage then.

To me, Webber/Vettel crash were more similar like Monty/Ralf case, which means, no team order been given and the drivers racing for their own victory. Beside, i personally dont think that criticism are fully on Webber alone. But oh well it has to do again with how you see the overtaking, after a proper research, 50% spectators said Webber generally has a nasty driving style, not that we havent see isnt? So i think Web/Vet crash has nothing link to manipulation

Nah, I think that was team orders that went wrong....Webber had his engine turned down, Vettel had his turned up on exactly the same lap - and Vettel's reaction afterwards also suggested to me that he had maybe expected Webber to give that position up a little easier

(07-27-2010 12:05 PM)icegirljenni Wrote:  What make you all feel frustrated with the last week race? I am curiously want to hear comment from you guys.

I said it before but I'll say it again...the hypocrisy of other teams (particularly McLaren) and the press (particularly the British press) - and also the way it seems Alonso is public enemy no.1 at the moment even though he's not the only one involved - and also a little frustrated at Fernando's behaviour, but I'm hoping maybe in the next few races he'll calm down again now that he's got that second win (well for now anyway) and he's kinda back in the championship

[Tension_36th]

(07-26-2010 11:43 AM)WiTcH Wrote:  And tension no I don't agree. They are team mates and if they crashed or something it would be much worse than then with Alonso and Schumacher. Different teams and different drivers. Anyway, if they had gone on and possible crash half of us would say that Ferrari are idiots who let their drivers crash and couldn't take a decision. And now that this happened there are others who say that these are team orders and bad for the sport and all these things.. As if we see it for the first time and only in this sport... So no one would be satisfied either way. End of conversation..

Lame excuses fans give to justify their end of the bargain and they know it and you also know it. It has little or common sense or merit to say a crash can be avoided if there are team orders.

These are racing drivers driving since a young age for many years, if they cant race without crashing into each other then they dont deserve to be in F1. This is not a sport for babying. or baby sitting how drivers need to pass each other.

You are merely taking a biased view because it happened to Alonso. Double standards. If it happened to Massa and Alonso had to move over you wont be saying the same things now. You will be the first to voice out against team orders. I can put money on that one.

(07-26-2010 02:30 PM)ashyxt Wrote:  by the way I really did not expect seeing such response in a alonso-fans forum, or are some of you guys just in disguise? = (

Nope, some of us are not blinkered and will question what Alonso does. Just because we are fans we dont have to defend everything he does. He was wrong, plain and simple. He was acting quite cheap when he couldnt pass Massa in a straight fight. That wailing by hm on the radio is uncalled for and was hardly 'professional' as he later called himself of his conduct.

This is sport. the faster driver has been held up by slower more skilled drivers all the time. This is not about letting the faster guy through. That is just absurd.

(07-26-2010 11:05 PM)Chrissie Wrote:  That's a good point maranelllored.....during the early part of this year, there were claims like he had changed and he wasn't like he used to be...but I didn't kind of think that, you know, I just thought he's just settling in to a new team and he's under a little bit of pressure so maybe he's allowed to be a bit moody and whatever, but after yesterday, I don't know - I don't really recognise him anymore and I hadn't thought of it before but yeah, I think that stint at McLaren did him more harm than I originally thought....

While I find there are certain ways in which you could defend what Ferrari did yesterday...it is difficult to defend Alonso's behaviour...that makes me kind of sad

Exactly, I thought I was the only one seeing this and everyone else had Alonso blinkered glasses on.

One can state it clearly, The alonso of 2005-2006 is long gone finished, now you have a shamiltonised version of Alonso. This version also labels the shameful charade as a "good feeling" to win the German GP. If those are not his words then it just shows he will allow the PR dept to speak on his behalf and make him look like a hypocritical clown. The real Fernando we knew of pre-2007 would never allow such treachery.

So much for the old claim from the same man "this is no longer a sport..."

Guess he decided to ditch his good worth and join the dark side.

(07-27-2010 05:50 AM)ashyxt Wrote:  so I wouldn't say Fernando had been hypocritical in this case, if you've read his interviews long enough you'd know he's a very straightforward guy, 99% of his thoughts come out unfiltered by his mind, only his heart

the team also did give felipe the chance to prove his pace, if you guys had read domenicali's interview, the 1sec gap to 3sec, with rob smedley urging him to pull a gap, that's the point, but fernando caught up in no time...

He is utterly hypocritical. As clear as crystal when he claimed the German GP win was a great feeling and also when he complained about the previous races being manipulated by the FIA. So FIA manipulation is bad but if it goes his way, he is ok with it.

Hypocrisy at its best.

And no Massa pulled fastest laps whenever Alonso closed up, its called pacing, This is F1, it old news. The leader doesn't have to run off into the distance if he is already done with all his scheduled pitstops. Everyone in the lead saves the car and parts by pacing just enough to maintain track position.

(07-27-2010 08:26 AM)TitusTravancore Wrote:  Finally, one question to Tension_36th: I know people think Alonso knew of all this earlier. But can this be verified? Alonso was definitely and maybe unreasonably bugged by his failed overtaking moves, hence the comment he made on the radio earlier "this is ridiculous" . But would he have known of the team asking Massa to move over? He could have since he closed right up to him. But there is a chance that he didn't know of it and just thought Massa was having a problem. Alonso could have learned of that after the race when he talked with Massa and that's why he probably appeared to dodge the point at the press conference. I know this is all hypothesis, but just felt like sharing it.

---

(07-26-2010 04:19 AM)Tension_36th Wrote:  You yes that was a moment of "Ouch" when they pointed out Valencia. Manipulated and all that.

What a mess.

Alonso apologized for what he said after Valencia. I think it should end with that.

Its called team and driver briefings, this is not a new revelation its been in this sport for decades. This is how drivers maintain their race awareness even when radio fails. So they know their own protocols.

This was so obvious that even a lemur can know its team orders with. Dont kid yourself into thinking Alonso didnt know exactly what was going on when Massa slowed down out of that exit.

Alonso only apologized after FIA warned of repercussions of such statements in public. They reserve right to sanction him for being disobedient and in contempt of the regulations and the regulators in public.

Plus Ferrari twists its drivers into reversing their comments all the time. Nothing new at Ferrari. Had it been renault, it would be Renault apologizing for Alonso and never Alonso because he tells exactly whats on his mind.

This is no hypocrisy from Horner, he has left both drivers to race openly and they have clashed in the past. No team orders to subdue them like Mclaren did or ask the faster Vettel to pass a struggling Webber on the straights.

I only see jealously from fans/teams who cant stomach the fact that Redbull have got it good for them and they just need to sort their reliability issues and then its toast for the rest. They all know it, that's why the hard attempts to bring them down. It will take more than that to bring them down.

(07-27-2010 01:59 PM)TitusTravancore Wrote:  Opinions vary, but I think the Red Bull clash in Turkey was caused by team orders that weren't obeyed. Webber stood his ground and as a result earned our respect. It clearly seemed a team order situation for me with Vettel suddenly gaining pace when Webber was steadying his pace. That was why the team initially were full of criticism for Webber alone. It seemed to me a manipulation that failed to produce the desired result. They then sensed it won't go down well in public and changed their view on the incident, claiming they hadn't seen the complete video footage then.

You are picking and choosing to fit a view. You do realize you have no way to incriminate Redbull like anyone can with Ferrari.

Redbull called in no team orders, Webber wasn't standing his ground to any orders from the team, he was standing his ground to a competitive attack from vettel. They were racing. Something that didnt happen for button and shamilton or Massa and Alonso.

The only fan boy in Redbull is Marko Helmut and everything started from him, he doesn't represent Redbull the team. He is one bad apple who will not be sticking around for long, He has caused a lot of trouble already at Toro Rosso. It was him and hm alone who made the accusations against Webber the rest just tried to remain neutral some just bought what that idiot had to say.

But talking about video footage you are wrong. Because you are either not understanding the sport or the rules of overtaking. Vettel goes around the outside and webber leaves the room wide open, he then squeezes vettel out by leaving not enough room to have all 4 wheels on the track (this is basic ethics to provide that little room) so Vettel forces the matter by turning into the track to force webber to give that minimum space. They collide and thats that.

They were both playing hard ball they didnt show the ethics in overtaking, but atleast they were racing, no team orders there.

There were no team orders, what happened there is a small few taking sides. Taking sides is different from having a driver move over on track. Thats not a team order. Get that definition clear before accusing a team of team orders.

(07-27-2010 02:16 PM)TitusTravancore Wrote:  Fans aren't blind, they are fully aware of the facts and must point out the right and wrong of their favorite driver.

You will need to do that in principal first, merely saying it and not doing it is of little use.

I am yet to see many of his fans acknowledge Alonso was out of line and hypocritical with his statements this season.

Fans are trying to justify everything he did, that is the example of blind fanship.

And Fans will always be biased, especially dedicated fans for any driver. Its naive to expect them to be reasonable.

[VoRteX]

Querido Raptor,
that is a magnifying glass to focus on some empty politically correct statements that mean nothing!
according to you Fernando is either speaking his mind, or being a hipocryte, or just dancing to the Ferrari song depending on your opinion about the issue at hand. make up your mind. but of course he can't speak his mind all the time! actually rarely can nor wishes to do it because of the way his words are deliberately taken out of context. a hard critic for saying he enjoyed the victory? gimme a break man
what i dont understand is why that insistence in being harsh on him all the time. it doesnt make you look more of an unbiased expert for magnifying the bad things and covering them with ancient Ferrari hate. its like you are angry all the time. why? smile more often its good for your health
Fernando has adapted very fast to the crappy red team, made up for those unusual mistakes with amazing recovery drives, has been outperforming his team mate in nearly all conditions by a good margin, had to suffer extremely suspicious adversities in Canada, Valencia and Silverstone(considering the points involved this issue should not be forgotten. how many points stolen from him?? THAT is the true scandal of this season), now tried to be lynched by the scared tabloidsmen (the true hypocrites of this story, scared of Alonso!)...
i'd say he's doing a really great job. and since 2007 has improved a lot in handling with the hostile media (that is most media unfort.), but to handle them also needed to make some concessions: and that is to speak his mind open even less often than he used to.
it's a shame, but there is no other way for him to survive in there.
politics stink, but that is what we have. adapt or die.

[ashyxt]

(07-30-2010 12:11 PM)Tension_36th Wrote:  He is utterly hypocritical. As clear as crystal when he claimed the German GP win was a great feeling and also when he complained about the previous races being manipulated by the FIA. So FIA manipulation is bad but if it goes his way, he is ok with it.

Hypocrisy at its best.

And no Massa pulled fastest laps whenever Alonso closed up, its called pacing, This is F1, it old news. The leader doesn't have to run off into the distance if he is already done with all his scheduled pitstops. Everyone in the lead saves the car and parts by pacing just enough to maintain track position.

hi, 1st of all I think you'd be better off admiting you're not alonso's fan?

Fernando's Scuderia blog entry is filtered by Ferrari's PR team when necessary, don't you agree?

what I trust is his reaction, his facial expression, his emotion etc in live interview, like in press conference, that's where I read him, as a fan
Fernando is a normal human he'd show signs of being nervous, upset, frustration etc, did he really react like the win was a really great feeling for him?? on the podium?

ermmmmmmmm are you sure?? in the late 2nd stint, Felipe had no answer to Fernando's pace (hence the team order obviously), delaying Fernando while Vettel's catching up = ) & after the team order's been given out, Rob Smedley told Massa to try to stick with Fernando, so how much gap did Fernando pull out in the lead? why didn't Felipe close in then? admit it you're just anti-alonso, which I'm sad to see here

[icegirljenni]

(07-31-2010 11:35 AM)ashyxt Wrote:  admit it you're just anti-alonso, which I'm sad to see here

As i said earlier variety in comments is welcome, dont take thing personal, be forward in commenting dont make you an anti fans. I think the way you ask him to admit he is not a fans is a bit rude. Differences in opinion is expected in Sports. He is the one set up the whole forum, and also part of the people who paid for the forum, do you think an anti fans will wasted their money to paid up the server? It is not cheap you know, making marketing in FB, twitter and own a website everything is an effort, he is the one making a debut for Fernando video, those effect he uses is not something you can just copy and paste, it is all an effort, why certified a fans as an anti fans just because they see something different than us? During the 2007 years, when he is the one who step up and defend Fernando, you are not even there to witness it, in 2003 , he is the one who defend and debate about "Fernando is a natural winner" with a journalist. That time you did not witness it. You must know a person long enough before you can judge them an "anti" or not. I can assure you he is not. Anti Alonso claim is a bit harsh. At least think off what he has done to Fernando community in the pass few years before you started to value a person. If you hate a driver you wont spend your precious time to do anything for them. At least i will not even care to paid a Lewis Shamilton forum and run it? NO WAY fat chance!


Just dont take thing too personal, discuss and debating is always health for forum, i love to read different points of view.

Am locking this up, read my reply and think about it. Everyone who has involve in building up this forum and community are doing it all with their heart, ellen, pete, sas, me and tension... we all are doing it with one interest... " We are Fernando fans"

If you need to speak to me personally, you can pm me and have a chat. Thanks